Elizabeth & Carol
Elizabeth Munro gave birth at 66 by elective Caesarean section. She had IVF treatment at a clinic in the Ukraine. Elizabeth Munro is divorced, so it is unknown whether or not the baby will have a father figure. In early July, she will celebrate her 67th birthday. These two milestones will make her Britain’s oldest mother with her age exceeding the previous record-holder, Patricia Rashbrook, by four years.
She could not get IVF treatment in the UK from the NHS who have a cut off date of age 40, or privately since the cut off date is fifty. But for £10,000 she was able to buy IVF treatment in the Ukraine. She has no partner, no brothers or sisters and she will be 80 when her child becomes a teenager. Teen tantrums can be difficult enough to cope with for younger parents.
The oldest known woman to have given birth is Omkari Panwar, from India, who had a twin boy and girl last year. She was said to be 70. Her 77-year-old husband paid for the IVF, which the couple wanted to provide a male heir, by selling buffaloes and mortgaging his land.
Maria del Carmen Bousada de Lara, from Spain, previously held the record after having twin boys at the age of 66 following IVF in America in 2006.
On BBC Radio 4 the other night a programme called the Moral Maze (a listen again facility is available for another five days) discussed this topic.
The first witness was Carol, a single career woman of 72 who is seeking IVF with a donor egg and sperm. She doesn’t have a husband or network of support. She used the term ‘WANT’, not desire, love or need. A child of five will tell you what they ‘WANT’ from Santa and it is never what they need. She actually asked publicly on air for a donor!!
When asked what she saw as the principal duty of a parent Carol said it was to ‘Put the child first!’ I am sorry, willingly setting out to bring a child into the world from a donor egg and sperm at the age of 72 plus, is not PUTTING the child first. I ‘WANT’ cream cakes, I am not supposed to eat them, and if I do eat them only I suffer.
The success rate for IVF in a woman aged 60 and over is ·8% (point eight percent).
Many of us in Ireland have followed with interest the long haul that Xbox and ET had to become pregnant – they are a young couple. So many times they reached the wall of despair, but had each other to lean on for comfort and the support in facing yet another cycle of scans, blood tests and bearing all to strangers.
A young healthy woman of natural child-bearing years can find the nine months of pregnancy difficult, at times stressful and tiring. So what must it be like for an older body?
What I have written so far deals with the female side of the equation.
The male body is a horse of a different colour. Man is capable of producing sperm way into his seventies. They have the fun…. Point and shoot! No morning sickness, mood swings, swollen ankles, painful boobs that weigh a tonne or feeling like a beached whale for several months! If that is not easy enough, when all the deep breathing, pushing, sweating and squealing is done (by the good lady) they are off down the pub with their mates for beers to celebrate the new arrival. 
Declaration time here:
I married a man old enough to be my father. We knowingly, willingly and lovingly conceived and brought Elly into this world. Jack was a very ‘hands on’ father playing a full part in her upbringing. They had a wonderful relationship that lasted until his death a few weeks before her 20th birthday. Elly can tell you about the teasing she faced about having a dad who was older than many of the grandparents of her class mates. She coped well. She may have teased her dad about the history that she was learning being current affairs when he was young, but whoa betide anyone at school who said anything disrespectful about her dad!
Jack had amazing energy and never looked or acted his age. We had each other on the stressful days, and I was half the age with double the energy I have now. I would not like, by natural means or any other, to start a family at the age I am now. Lifting, bending and keeping up with a crawling baby is bad enough without the thought of facing the terrible teens in ten or twelve years time.
What do you think?
Baino said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:00 am
Oooh first up. That’s what you get for knowing a Friday saddo with nothing to do but pour barbecue sauce on tonight’s meat loaf! Seriously . . .there’s a reason why women become infertile earlier than men . .no woman is supposed to have children after menopause . .that’s what the whole things all about . .traditionally (and I’m speaking anthropologically) women are the childbearers, providers, nurturers while the men just go out swinging their clubs around. Just because we ‘can’ get pregnant through artificial means at 70 doesn’t mean we should! As for the child? My sister was embarrassed at primary school to have a mother over 40! Imagine being 10 and your mother almost 80! No no . .IVF for the young and infertile, not the old and selfish.
Nick said,
June 12, 2009 at 10:28 am
I think in the end it’s the woman’s choice whether to have a child at such an advanced age, though certainly it seems rather perverse. Some older women may be fit enough and energetic enough for it to work, but many more are probably not up to the demands and challenges bringing up a child involves. I certainly wouldn’t want to bring up a child at the age of 62, it’s quite enough just looking after a house, the domestic chores and a job if I have one.
Ian said,
June 12, 2009 at 10:55 am
I fear that babies are becoming a ‘lifestyle’ accessory. I think it will be very hard for the kids in years to come. Being realistic, they are going to be teenage orphans.
Nelly said,
June 12, 2009 at 11:00 am
It wouldn’t be my choice to have a baby at the (comparatively) tender age of 55. But… if, as sometimes happens, grandmothers rear their grandchildren and older women adopt, why shouldn’t older women bring babies into the world? I have always thought that having children is a selfish act no matter what the parent’s age. Selfishness is not always wrong.
kenju said,
June 12, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Grannymar, I think those women are nuts! and I think any doctor who would help a woman over 50 get pregnant is money hungry.
Come back to my post and click on the words “fried green” and you will be taken to a recipe for fried green tomatoes!
Nancy said,
June 12, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Grannymar, This is the story of a 68 year old woman who had a new baby…
When her friends came to visit they asked to see the baby. The new Mom said, “Not right now, you’ll have to wait.”
They waited a half hour and asked again to see the baby.’Not yet,”said,the new Mom.
Another 30 minutes passed and they said, “We would like to see the baby now.”
New Mom said, ” No, we’ll have to wait for it to cry. I forget where I put it.”
Grannymar said,
June 12, 2009 at 1:37 pm
@Baino - I have no problem with helping couples who are within the normal child bearing years to have a baby, but pushing the clock to extremes is not fair to the child. I know many women my age and older who look after grandchildren several days a week. Get them on their own and they will admit that much as they love the grandchildren, it is very tiring and they are all glad to hand the children back to their parents!
@Nick - It is everyone’s right to make that choice, but the baby stage (first twelve months) is the easy bit. Having the energy to face and deal with the demands and challenges on a constant 24/7 X16+ years is a different matter.
@Ian - I am inclined to agree with you about the ‘lifestyle’ accessory. When I see the emotional roller coaster that some adopted children go through to ‘find’ a biological parent, I too worry about these IVF donor babies in years to come as they search to discover their roots and ancestry.
@Nelly - Selfishness is not always right either.
@Judy - I worry about the ethics of the Doctors who provide these services for women of extreme age.
PS I found the recipe. Thank You.
Grannymar said,
June 12, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Nancy,
Trust you to have a funny story to lighten the mood!
Magpie11 said,
June 12, 2009 at 2:15 pm
She’s going to the Ukraine for the treatment….
I have serious doubts about IVF any way…and about organ transplants as well…. I always think that in the majority of cases the money could be better spent.
Perhaps it’s a case of too much knowledge being a dangerous thing?
Darlene said,
June 12, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I agree that these women are nuts. It is insane to think that a 70 or 80 year old woman could be a good mother. At 84 I can no longer do my floors, I am weary most of the time, and I don’t have the energy to cook. How in God’s green earth could I handle a 14 year old when their energy level is at it’s peak? Nature was far wiser and I think these women are a long way from reality.
rummuser said,
June 12, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Let me give you a man’s perceptive. I loved being a father and playing a part in bringing up Ranjan. I still enjoy being a father to him and having him for a son. I enjoy being uncle to many nephews and nieces and now grand uncle but, alas, not grand father. I think that I would enjoy being a grand father but would leave it to God to work out whether I ever will be or not. Supposing however, I became a grandfather to a child at the age of say 70 without a natural parent being around for the child, I do not think that I shall be able to and do justice to bringing up the child. I think that commonsense should tell us that parenting at an older age is risky and totally unfair to the child.
Xbox4NappyRash said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Where do you draw the line though? and what are the criteria for deeming a woman too old?
If nature alone was to be the decider, my wife and I are already ‘too old’ or deemed ‘unsuitable’ by biology.
If we didn’t have the help of medical intervention, I wouldn’t be the happiest man on the planet today.
While those cases don’t sit right with me, I find it hard to bring myself to say they are wrong.
For someone to go to such extreme lengths to start a family, it can only be fuelled out of love, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Grannymar said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:01 pm
@Magpie - I worry and wonder about that Dr in the Ukraine.
@Darlene - You and I know the difference in energy levels from when we had our children and how it is now. Perhaps Carol will hire a Nanny. If she plans to have a baby by IVF and a donor egg and sperm, and then hires a Nanny to raise it…. she really only needs the doll!
@Ramana - You said it! The all important phrase is to ‘do justice to bringing up the child’!
Grannymar said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:25 pm
XBox,
Congratulations again and welcome to the discussion.
The normal or usual age for menopause in women is between 50 and 55 years of age. I do know two women who became pregnant naturally in that transitional time, neither baby was planned and the women found late motherhood (not the birth) was far more difficult and tiring than having a child in their younger years.
You and ET are a couple to share in the upbringing and all that it entails. Both Elizabeth (66) and Carol (72) are alone without a partner or family to support them.
You wrote of how difficult it was at times for ET. You know how you felt with each disappointment along the way. Do you think that if ET was on her own without your support that she would have continued for so long? If she was 66years of age or older would you let her go through all that over and over again?
Xbox4NappyRash said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Thank you, we’re overjoyed
I know what I would do, and my gut instinct is that I would never be in favour of bringing a child into the world that I didn’t think could be cared for into adulthood. Frankly I think what those women are doing is madness.
My point is more this, we bend the rules of nature now as is, and I find it very hard to be able to say what the limit is, where the line is, what aspects of fertility we should or shouldn’t intervene in.
Incidentally, my own mother, if she had been more sensible in some respects, would never have become pregnant with me at the age of 42, 32 years ago while not in the best of health. She would certainly have lived longer than just the next ten years. I do know that she wouldn’t have changed a thing, and I can only be glad of that!
Grannymar said,
June 12, 2009 at 9:52 pm
XBox,
My own mother had her last baby at 41 years of age and went straight into the menopause. That baby was the sixth survivor of nine pregnancies.
The 72 year old mentioned above hasn’t even started on her journey to get pregnant yet. You know all about how long the process takes to start that journey to reach the stage you are at now, at that rate she could be pregnant at 80.
Jean Browman--Cheerful Monk said,
June 13, 2009 at 7:41 am
I agree that it’s not fair to the child.
I would like to hear more about your marriage. How did you meet your husband and decide to marry?
Nancy,
What a great joke! Thank you.
Ashok said,
June 13, 2009 at 7:51 am
I have to agree, being a parent at too late an age is hardly putting the child first. But I don’t know really, I guess young or old, no one is ready to be a parent. We all just learn along the way. So save for the physical limitations of ageing, I suppose they are just about as qualified as any of us are. To further on this point, as long as people are young in their hearts, they are never too old. I find, thus, that many of the so called older generation are quite young even in relative comparison to twenty year olds like myself actually. So, to summarise it while I do think at later ages its seldom a good choice to bring a child into the world, I guess it comes down individually to each person.
With particular referrence to men, well it is true, we seem to be biologically programmed to have little or no tolerance to any kind of uneasiness. I will always respect women for being the tougher sex although some might disagree with me given the stereotypical perception of man. But there are quite a few amongst my kind who are just about as sensitive as any woman can be and the better parent in most relationships I have seen is always the father here. Of course in my own family, our mother played and continues to play an invaluable role in our lives. Again topic best judged on a case by case basis.
Grannymar said,
June 13, 2009 at 11:48 am
@Jean - Having a child is a lifetime responsibility, not something to goo and gaa over and then leave in the corner to gather dust like the latest technology toy. Speaking as a woman past the fertile years and with no husband… If I was to purchase eggs and sperm for IVF, then I become the shoe box or fish tank in which to store them for nine months.
I make one and only one exception to my statement above. If my daughter had fruitful eggs and her husband the necessary sperm to fertilize then, and she was unable to carry the baby, then I would think about carrying the baby for both of them - it would be within our close well bonded family group.
Jean you asked about my introduction to my husband. I have told the story in a Podcast a few years ago and you can listen to it here.
@Ashok - Welcome to the conversation. If you were to be a father today what changes would it make to your life? If you were to have sole responsibility for that child would the changes be different? Now put yourself in the woman’s place… dealing with the emotional upheavel, chemical and physical changes that take place during the time of pregnancy. Add to that the intrusive and invasive procedures necessary over many months before the pregnancy begins. It is certainly not like going to the pharmacy buying a packet of pills and popping them!
How will that woman explain to a child who their biological parents are? Will she know? If she has a right to have a child in this pick and mix way, surely the child has that same right to know where it came from. No child wants to be told ‘I bought you from the egg counter in (insert supermarket name)!
rummuser said,
June 13, 2009 at 11:57 am
Interestingly enough, today’s BBC has this to say about delayed motherhood http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8097652.stm
It may be a good idea to think this through to even older women as is being discussed here.
rummuser said,
June 13, 2009 at 11:58 am
Grannymar, where is Nancy’s joke? Why are you hiding it from us?
Grannymar said,
June 13, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Ramana - thank you for the BBC link.
Nancy’s comment with the joke is six from the top!
Ashok said,
June 13, 2009 at 8:49 pm
You raised some very valid points Ma’am. As I said, I will always respect women for being the tougher sex. Its never easy for the child either.
Grannymar said,
June 13, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Ashok,
I agree with you, the child is the most important person in the equation.
Jana said,
June 14, 2009 at 5:13 am
This is an interesting topic. There has been quite a bit written on Elizabeth Munro (or Elizabeth Adeney in some reports) and I’ve read most of it. While the intrusion into the private life of a person who’s not sought media attention doesn’t sit that well with me, I do think it raises some questions. Who are we to judge? Should this kind of thing be legislated? Where do we draw the line?
I came to the conclusion that there’s no way to legislate this, because every woman/family is different. One woman might not be healthy enough to have a child at 40. This woman managed to carry a pregnancy nearly to term at 66. As much as *I* personally would not want to have a baby at that age, especially on my own, what’s right for me is not right for everyone. And even though I question the wisdom of procreation past 50ish, it’s really not my business. In this case, it’s Ms. Munro’s private business and she said as much.
In reading about Ms. Munro’s situation, I found that she had tried to have a child for more than 20 years. That’s persistence! She is wealthy, which doesn’t fix everything, but does help. She thought long and hard about this and looked at the risks and benefits. Hopefully, that means her eyes are wide open to the potential pitfalls of motherhood at her age and she has planned for any eventuality. She has a nanny. So, she’s not totally on her own. She obviously really, really, really wanted her child and he will at least be loved and well provided for. Is that enough? I don’t know. Let’s write him in 20 years and ask!
Wannabe said,
June 14, 2009 at 5:56 am
After reading this, I went to look up a little more on the story. Did you see the pictures of Elizabeth Munro bringing her baby home? She barely looks 50, much less 66. I realize that she IS 66, regardless. But I hope that speaks well of her health and future. Whatever my thoughts are on her decision, I certainly wish her a long and happy time with her son. She named him Jolyon, meaning “young at heart,” for crying out loud. Does that indicate she also has a sense of humour about all of this?
I am the (unplanned) child of older parents, myself. Granted, they were 20 or so years younger than Elizabeth is when they had me, which does make a difference difference. I have siblings who are 23 and 18 years older. And there were people then who thought my mother should’ve had an abortion because of her age. But, I was always reassured that my parents loved me and wanted me very much and I think Elizabeth will do the same for her son. I did go through a stage in which I found it embarrassing. However, I ultimately wouldn’t have traded parents with anyone. My parents are still alive, healthy and in their right minds and my whole family is fortunate in that.
I don’t feel that her age means that she can’t give her child a great life.
Grannymar said,
June 14, 2009 at 11:12 am
Welcome Jana & Wannabe to my blog and to the conversation.
Firstly, since the four names I mentioned in my piece above were already in the public arena, I had no difficulty is using them. I used them purely for reference purposes.
The replies before you joined in were from a broad age range (20 through to 84) and both sexes. The average age for those who left comments was 57. Eight of them were part of a couple. Most of them stated that they would not like to begin or add to a family at their mature age.
My main difficulty was pushing the clock to such extremes. Carol the woman of 72 actually said on air that her life was ‘too busy’ up until this stage to have a baby. We are not talking about conquering Everest or a polar walk here, we are talking of a human being that needs nurturing, education and caring love to prepare for a fulfilling life.
I am not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong. Everyone has their own views and that is why I asked for them at the end of the post.
Jana said,
June 14, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Grannymar, I have no problem with YOU discussing any of those women in your blog. As I said, I find the topic interesting and thought-provoking. That’s why I responded. You have a good back-and-forth going here with what I assume are mostly your regular readers.
My only issue is the way the PRESS has skewered Elizabeth Munro, a private citizen, when she has done nothing to seek any media attention. The other women you mentioned all spoke to the press, I believe. And this Carol (I have yet to listen to it, but will before the day is over) seems to be after the attention. She isn’t even pregnant yet! I have a feeling she is going to give me the willies.
Grannymar said,
June 14, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Jana,
I am blessed to have regular visitors who vary in age, culture and walk of life right across the globe. Friendships have grown not alone with me but with several of them emailing each other behind the scenes. Long may it continue.
I look forward to hearing your views after listening to the Moral Maze and perhaps the link left by Ramana to a BBC video of a younger woman.
Jana said,
June 15, 2009 at 6:06 am
I did listen to the Moral Maze broadcast and I viewed the video Ramana posted. A wide range of views were put out there and it was extremely interesting. The younger woman in the video made the fundamental point that sometimes your life doesn’t unfold in such a way that you’re married or in a relationship in your early-to-mid 20s and can have children immediately.
Now, I do wonder why women such as Elizabeth Munro and Carol from Moral Maze, who knew they wanted children around the ages of 45-50 and weren’t successful in having them naturally then, didn’t consider adoption years earlier? I understand that there’s a certain biological drive that makes women want to be pregnant, give birth and all that. But, I feel that if I badly wanted a child and couldn’t have one, I would prefer to wait a year or 2 to adopt, rather than spend years upon years trying fertility treatments that were more likely than not to be unsuccessful.
Prof. Bostrom, I think, was my favorite of the Moral Maze witnesses. Even though Melanie was rather antagonistic toward him and I was ready to gag her. I thought he was fair. He said that, the older the potential parent(s) become, the less likely it is that a decision to have a child would be a wise one. But, he also pointed out that there are factors that might compensate positively to balance out the older age of the mother, such as socioeconomic background.
I liked what Claire had to say and was basically in agreement with her. Whether or not we, as individuals, are totally comfortable with women in their 60s and older having babies, the decision can really only be between the woman and her doctor. We can’t appoint a panel of people to make decisions on who will and won’t be a fit parent or draw arbitrary lines. There are too many variables in play.
What really hit me after listening to Moral Maze-reading it here just didn’t get it through my skull, apparently-is that there’s such a tiny chance of someone over 60 becoming pregnant through IVF. And so few can afford to try in the first place. So, bottom line, is this going to become a big problem? Likely not, unless the technology improves a lot. Which it certainly could. Seriously, though, most women that age do NOT want to have a baby, anyway.
As for Carol, I’d be curious to know if they received any calls from women eager to be her egg donor. Ha ha! I do think she made some good points in her argument, particularly about scientific advances constantly pushing the boundaries of what’s considered to be the norm. While I doubt motherhood at her age will ever be regarded as remotely normal in my lifetime, I suppose it’s possible that 100 years from now she’ll be looked upon as a pioneer. Doubtful, but possible.
Grannymar said,
June 15, 2009 at 9:21 am
Jana,
Thank you for returning to give us your take on the links listed above.
Although the success rate for IVF in a woman aged 60 and over is ·8%, and so expensive at the moment, it can still give a false hope to so many vulnerable women. Yes, when the emotion takes over they are vulnerable. I actually wonder about the motives of some of the Doctors who provide this service to women over 60…. Is it genuine help, research or the money to fund a grand lifestyle that drives them on?